I got a little swept up when writing my response post and decided some of my thoughts should go in a seperate posting as more of a "why are you an atheist?" bit. I'm putting this up because whenever I move into a question of morality I tend to get rather passionate, and I felt it was best to do clearly delineate between what will probably become a bit of a rant, and what was simply a response to your questions.
/rant on
I'm going to start with an explanition as to why I get passionate about my beliefs. There is a wonderful world out there, filled with life, with complexity, with a myriad of beautiful and wonderful things to be seen, enjoyed, loved and expierenced. And understood. That last one is very important to me. Ever since I was young the most important thing underlying any new toy, any new concept was the how, the why. That pursuit is still with me and it is one of the nobelist things I can think of. Truth will always be of paramount import to me, truth in spite of comfort, truth in spite of tradition. Yet, fortunantly, truth brings it's on comfort and traditions along with the joy of real understanding.
A religious person who simply wants to live a good life and by the way, praise Jesus, only bothers me in the abstract. It bothers me in the same way that a child thanking the stoplight for the new bike they got for christmas would bother me. Give credit where credit is due, not where you were told it was.
Santa didn't give me my first bike, despite what I was led to believe at the time, and I do remember thanking mom and dad for all the christmas presents they had ever given me when I finally did learn the truth on that one. I lost a little magic, but gained appreciation for something that was real.
The same point applys to reality, I don't worship anything because there isn't anything TO worship. I marvel at the complexity of the interplay of matter, at the diversity of life by such simple and elegant construction of billions upon billions of assembled mutations, at the inherent structer of mathmatics and how so many things can be so simply calculated. Yet in all of that there is no god. There is no reason to suspect the existance of one, and we wouldn't save tradition.
Many people claim a personal expierence, or many, to explain their belief. Well I can't tell you what it was, it may very well have been a god talking to you, but here is what I can say about it. It most certianly was not any of the various Jesus figures I have been told exist over the years. We are not designed. We are not some pinnacle of creation placed here to say "holy crap you are so freaking awesome" to someone who wanted a bunch of pinnacles of creation going "holy crap you are so freaking awesome" for the entire span of their lives and then let them come hang out with him if they did so. The logic of it is all wrong.
You may say my theology is incorrect but...frankly how do you know?! How can you prove it! You have told me before, "God cannot exist with sin, so he had his son (really him) come down and die for us to take on the sin (he said it was sin in the first place) and therefore we were forgiven." Two problems, 1. God died to forgive something that he had decided was wrong but didn't really offer an explaination other than, "no seriously, don't do it." and 2. How did his death forgive it?
If I make a rule, say no sitting in my chair, and find out someone is sitting in my chair, I am not duty bound to punish them for eternity. I can simply say "please get out of my chair, I don't like you sitting in it" or I could just let the matter go. At no point do I have to die to make sitting in my chair ok. The same goes for morality drawn from the principal of the bible. It's almost sadomasochistic if it were taken literally, I mean god died to impress himself enough to forgive something. It doesn't make sense, yet I know (we have had this discussion and I can remember your explanations) that by some convoluted explanation of hebrew law at the time, it makes sense, but THAT GOES WITH WHAT I'M SAYING. Of COURSE it makes sense under hebrew law, they were the ones making it up! What kind of divine creator is subject to contract law for pete's sake? The whole idea of "divinity" sorta rules that out. If he decides something is forgiven then it damn well is and if you have a problem with that well...make your own universe. And that's just the christian god. We move into hindu text and things get really wierd...move into older myth and then it gets laughable that people belived this tripe.
We make up our gods, or we follow the ones that have been made up for us. Humans have an innate desire to understand our world and we will keep looking for answers untill there aren't any more of us around to look, but that doesn't mean the answers we've found are legitimate. Religion belittles that search by pretending to put payed to the spaces and margins between our understanding by writing over them in all capital bold text GOD DID THIS, but that is worse than misleading. Those gaps shouldn't be written over by fiat, but by knowledge. They should sit blank and invitingly empty, as a peice of canvas to a painter, waiting for the art of scientific discovery to paint us a new masterpeice. To me...religion is just so much graffiti.
Sunday, February 15, 2009
Joe's response about authority.
First off, let me apologise in advance if I slip out of the one topic at a time rule. The point of faith vs belief is inherent to many of my arguments on these topics, so it will come up outside of it's own individual Q&A.
Now I'll start with what I meant by allegory. Religion claims it's authority, but there is little substance, other than testimonial, to back it up, therefore we have the stories. Allegory and myth, tales that are designed to evoke a feeling of why something is dictated by religion without actually setting up a factual basis, a grounding in a system of logical principal.
On the subject of authority, you spoke about imperal vs veracious. Now I'll start off saying I completely agree with you on imperal authority. It is a taken thing, not given, but I don't think it is quite as simple as you portrayed. The situations you raised in your post are a combination of the two. The government assumes imperal authority (polices forces, military, court systems, etc.), however this is based, at least partially, on veracious authority. Now historically the veracious only tends to be a small amount, otherwise revolution would be more common. A law unenforced or unenforcable is a law best left unwritten, and if you are founded simply on popular opinion you will be overthrown the first time you have to make a hard decision for the betterment of your society.
Now to turn back to the religious point, it is also both imperial and veracious. If it were truly pure veracious, the concept of hell/cut off from God/punishment in any form wouldn't exist. The veracious authority I yield to Richard Dawkins, Dan Denett or any other scholar is based on their ability to poist a well reasoned argument, based on evidence. I may disagree with points they raise, but there is no punishment, only more debate as two differing viewpoints are exaimined.
This brings me to my second point, veracious authority and from where is it drawn? As I said, the authority I give is reasoned. It is based on evidence, argument, debate and rational principal. The authority you grant to religious ideas is faith based. Taking a system of morality as a guiding principals and endevoring to live by them is fine, but they should be REASONED principals and not...well, assumed imperal authority. There is a punishment system involved in religion and the avoidance of said punishment is, at least partially, underlying the belief structure.
I followed christian principals while I still considered myself to be a chrsitian, and I still continue to follow many of them despite casting aside faith. I give vericaous authority to those principals (some would say I give it to christ, but they would be in error) yet I live by them because it is my choice. I see the vaule to myself and to society and based on that value I adher to them. There is 0% imperial authority in my moral code, or in that of many ahteists. We stand upon the idea that our society is biult on principals that result in a better life for everyone, ourselves included.
I submit that atheist morality is more truly veracious, that our beliefs are not founded on fear, even an infintesimal amount of it, but a true desire to live in a better and more moral world. A desire to live in a world where everyone can have a fufilling existance withouth harming others and that morality is based on these principals and note on a foreign authority that must simply be belived in to validate anything that can be claimed in its name.
Now I'll start with what I meant by allegory. Religion claims it's authority, but there is little substance, other than testimonial, to back it up, therefore we have the stories. Allegory and myth, tales that are designed to evoke a feeling of why something is dictated by religion without actually setting up a factual basis, a grounding in a system of logical principal.
On the subject of authority, you spoke about imperal vs veracious. Now I'll start off saying I completely agree with you on imperal authority. It is a taken thing, not given, but I don't think it is quite as simple as you portrayed. The situations you raised in your post are a combination of the two. The government assumes imperal authority (polices forces, military, court systems, etc.), however this is based, at least partially, on veracious authority. Now historically the veracious only tends to be a small amount, otherwise revolution would be more common. A law unenforced or unenforcable is a law best left unwritten, and if you are founded simply on popular opinion you will be overthrown the first time you have to make a hard decision for the betterment of your society.
Now to turn back to the religious point, it is also both imperial and veracious. If it were truly pure veracious, the concept of hell/cut off from God/punishment in any form wouldn't exist. The veracious authority I yield to Richard Dawkins, Dan Denett or any other scholar is based on their ability to poist a well reasoned argument, based on evidence. I may disagree with points they raise, but there is no punishment, only more debate as two differing viewpoints are exaimined.
This brings me to my second point, veracious authority and from where is it drawn? As I said, the authority I give is reasoned. It is based on evidence, argument, debate and rational principal. The authority you grant to religious ideas is faith based. Taking a system of morality as a guiding principals and endevoring to live by them is fine, but they should be REASONED principals and not...well, assumed imperal authority. There is a punishment system involved in religion and the avoidance of said punishment is, at least partially, underlying the belief structure.
I followed christian principals while I still considered myself to be a chrsitian, and I still continue to follow many of them despite casting aside faith. I give vericaous authority to those principals (some would say I give it to christ, but they would be in error) yet I live by them because it is my choice. I see the vaule to myself and to society and based on that value I adher to them. There is 0% imperial authority in my moral code, or in that of many ahteists. We stand upon the idea that our society is biult on principals that result in a better life for everyone, ourselves included.
I submit that atheist morality is more truly veracious, that our beliefs are not founded on fear, even an infintesimal amount of it, but a true desire to live in a better and more moral world. A desire to live in a world where everyone can have a fufilling existance withouth harming others and that morality is based on these principals and note on a foreign authority that must simply be belived in to validate anything that can be claimed in its name.
Monday, February 9, 2009
Jennings' Response to Joe's Reply on January 20th
Hey Joe,
Sorry about getting back to you so late. The ministry has been very busy lately! I think I have a bit of a breather right now. I'm thinking maybe we should focus on one point at a time so that we don't have long responses and so we can focus on one issue at a time and give more concise answers. (A tentative list at bottom of this post)
Let's start with your last point of Authority!
First, if you could explain what you mean by "authority with allegory"
Just to define Authority real quick, Authority has two dimensions, one is Imperial Authority and the other is Veracious Authority. Imperial Authority is some one who holds authority over you based on the position that they have. for example a dictator has Imperial Authority. A person in society must listen to them because of their position. The person knows that if they do not listen then they could be put to death. When we drive down the road we let police have authority over how fast we drive only when we see a police car. At all other times we ignore their authority. Imperial Authority only works when the enforcement is in place. Our government really only exercises Imperial Authority. For the most part people only give the government authority when there is a chance of being caught, so this authority is extremely limited. And at the end of the day is not authority at all.
For a Christian we believe Christ/God/HS have Veracious Authority over us. This means that it is not the position that we respect, but the character of God that holds authority over us. We saw that that Christ humbled himself for death on the cross the ultimate self-sacrifice and display of love. For God so loved(-agape-unconditionally loved) the World that He gave His Only Son! When a Christian sees this character of God then we give God Authority over our lives! This is really the best type of Authority you can have! We realize that the Authority is not limited to when we feel God is present. We follow His authority voluntarily! This goes back to God's free will that he has given us. He does not want us to live under a dictator. This is why in the OT God allowed for generations and generations and even more generations of his chosen people who had made a covenant with him and were bound to death by the covenant to continue to break the covenant before calling them on covenant lawsuit. He wanted them to follow Him not because of His position, but because they wanted to, after realizing His power!! This is called Grace and Mercy.
You may give Authority to the government, but if you were completely honest it is not an Authority that is full of integrity. By this i mean you would go against the governments authority if you felt it was misguided or even if you were late for work and needed to speed. However, with Richard Dawkins you give him Veracious Authority over your life and education and purchasing power because you like his character. Even when he is not around you still see his authority over your life.
The most important part of Authority given to someone is the by product of Influence. How does the Government's authority effect you? How does Dawkins authority effect you? (rhetorical)
As a Christian, after learning and studying the Character of God, I give Him authority out of free choice, not out of being forced to do so. Anyone giving God Authority simply because of His position, has very misguided theology of who God is and how He wants us to follow Him. God does not seek Imperial Authority, but Veracious Authority over our lives. This influences me in every walk of life. Because of my love for God, I TRY to live life in a way that would be pleasing to Him. This influence of His Authority cause me to listen to his Laws, his proverbs, his prophecies, His gospels, parables, teachings, His letters, and his revelation. I listen because I know God wants what is best for me and in following and looking back at my life, when i follow God life is better, the Kingdom of Heaven is Here, when i don't, I see Hell show up on earth. In other words when I follow God there is a point to life, there is purpose, when I don't it is random and pointless. I don't arbitrarily give God this authority, I love him and this love allows for Authority.
Please explain what you mean by "religion just claims authority and then stomps on the questions of those authority with allegory" That may a good place for you to jump off to next on the issue of Authority.
Based on your reasoning, religion has at least as much authority as anything else--or nothing has authority. If there is no God, all authority is self-defined--something you criticize religion of doing. Perhaps religious thought, and the thoughts you share, are closer than they might appear at first viewing.
0.5)Authority
1)Jesus is God and more than a great teacher
2)The God of the Old Testament
-->Don't forget Context!
3)Evidence vs. Faith
--> You have to put faith in the Evidence you Recieve
4)Altruism vs. Religious Motivation
5)Canon
Sorry about getting back to you so late. The ministry has been very busy lately! I think I have a bit of a breather right now. I'm thinking maybe we should focus on one point at a time so that we don't have long responses and so we can focus on one issue at a time and give more concise answers. (A tentative list at bottom of this post)
Let's start with your last point of Authority!
First, if you could explain what you mean by "authority with allegory"
Just to define Authority real quick, Authority has two dimensions, one is Imperial Authority and the other is Veracious Authority. Imperial Authority is some one who holds authority over you based on the position that they have. for example a dictator has Imperial Authority. A person in society must listen to them because of their position. The person knows that if they do not listen then they could be put to death. When we drive down the road we let police have authority over how fast we drive only when we see a police car. At all other times we ignore their authority. Imperial Authority only works when the enforcement is in place. Our government really only exercises Imperial Authority. For the most part people only give the government authority when there is a chance of being caught, so this authority is extremely limited. And at the end of the day is not authority at all.
For a Christian we believe Christ/God/HS have Veracious Authority over us. This means that it is not the position that we respect, but the character of God that holds authority over us. We saw that that Christ humbled himself for death on the cross the ultimate self-sacrifice and display of love. For God so loved(-agape-unconditionally loved) the World that He gave His Only Son! When a Christian sees this character of God then we give God Authority over our lives! This is really the best type of Authority you can have! We realize that the Authority is not limited to when we feel God is present. We follow His authority voluntarily! This goes back to God's free will that he has given us. He does not want us to live under a dictator. This is why in the OT God allowed for generations and generations and even more generations of his chosen people who had made a covenant with him and were bound to death by the covenant to continue to break the covenant before calling them on covenant lawsuit. He wanted them to follow Him not because of His position, but because they wanted to, after realizing His power!! This is called Grace and Mercy.
You may give Authority to the government, but if you were completely honest it is not an Authority that is full of integrity. By this i mean you would go against the governments authority if you felt it was misguided or even if you were late for work and needed to speed. However, with Richard Dawkins you give him Veracious Authority over your life and education and purchasing power because you like his character. Even when he is not around you still see his authority over your life.
The most important part of Authority given to someone is the by product of Influence. How does the Government's authority effect you? How does Dawkins authority effect you? (rhetorical)
As a Christian, after learning and studying the Character of God, I give Him authority out of free choice, not out of being forced to do so. Anyone giving God Authority simply because of His position, has very misguided theology of who God is and how He wants us to follow Him. God does not seek Imperial Authority, but Veracious Authority over our lives. This influences me in every walk of life. Because of my love for God, I TRY to live life in a way that would be pleasing to Him. This influence of His Authority cause me to listen to his Laws, his proverbs, his prophecies, His gospels, parables, teachings, His letters, and his revelation. I listen because I know God wants what is best for me and in following and looking back at my life, when i follow God life is better, the Kingdom of Heaven is Here, when i don't, I see Hell show up on earth. In other words when I follow God there is a point to life, there is purpose, when I don't it is random and pointless. I don't arbitrarily give God this authority, I love him and this love allows for Authority.
Please explain what you mean by "religion just claims authority and then stomps on the questions of those authority with allegory" That may a good place for you to jump off to next on the issue of Authority.
Here is a good comment from Dad about Authority...
Hmmm...Interesting thought about authority, but... Why is any authority IN authority? It is, in some measure, from self-proclaimed authority. Adults, parents, teachers, etc. Even elected authority is based on the collective authority of the people doing the election. Why is it legal for some people to vote, but not others? Did something about that truth suddenly change when the voting age dropped 3 years to age 18?Based on your reasoning, religion has at least as much authority as anything else--or nothing has authority. If there is no God, all authority is self-defined--something you criticize religion of doing. Perhaps religious thought, and the thoughts you share, are closer than they might appear at first viewing.
Here are some Points for later discussions after we finish up Authority...
Points to follow(if okay with you, please add into the points so it's not all me)0.5)Authority
1)Jesus is God and more than a great teacher
2)The God of the Old Testament
-->Don't forget Context!
3)Evidence vs. Faith
--> You have to put faith in the Evidence you Recieve
4)Altruism vs. Religious Motivation
5)Canon
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